I used to share a lot of your opinions but i am beginning to kinda get it. The church should never be where you get your meat and potatoes. Its more of a hands in/break that you see before a game. To touch base and restore the tank surrounded by like minded people and just have normal conversations from a similar foundation. Now i am in no way saying that any church is perfect, far from it, they are flawed just like the people who sit in them. Believe me, i was right there with you with the criticism, but as i learn about grace, i am realizing that its not just grace to the sinners, its about grace to those who know not the muck and the mire, who have never stepped out of line far enough to feel immersed in sin. I have come to see that their struggle is very real and quite different from mine. I know what i left behind, but they will always have that small voice asking"what if?" As for those spilling blasphemous doctrine, they will be judged harsher than the rest of us, so i am trying to learn to have grace with them too. Think about the times anybody ever changed your heart or mind, was it with the judgment of the first testament, or was it with the heart of Christ in the new? All along we have asked for examples, we got kings, but they, as human, also fell short, so our Father sent the ultimate example. I admire your ponderings and the way you phrase the wanderings of your mind. Thank you for writing
For me, I'm moving in the opposite direction. I didn't have high expectations of church when I came into it for the first time in adulthood 4 years ago, and I had little knowledge of Scripture besides the bits from Sunday school as a kid and veggie tales. My simple rubric was, "who's recognizing that God and worshipping Him and having fellowship is more important than temporal safety?" Exploring churches during COVID was a great way to see that. Any church that was shutting down and following illegal government mandates about masks and distance isn't worthy to be considered a church. If getting sick is proven by action to be a worse thing than hellfire, there is no faith in that "church". So I joined one of only 2 churches in my state sueing the state over 1st amendment violations. It's truly incredible how few did and how effectively the "church" has been muzzled.
What I've come to understand since then is it's even deeper than that. Church doesn't exist in the New Testament, the word is Ekklesia. It means called out: those called out of the world and into the body of Christ, and this is fundamentally at variance with the world. This is a community, a family, a body, not a water cooler. The institutions masquerading as God's overseers and servants don't bring a nice social club, they disgrace God's name and denigrate Christ's message to babbling incoherence. If church isn't the "real deal", the Ekklesia, then what is it? What good can it possibly do if it isn't following God's word nor spirit? It's worse to do wrong in God's name, even in ignorance, than to never know His word at all.
I once asked similar questions and someone once told me to think about how much farther gone people would be without any form of Christ in their lives. This entire life is a refining process and everyday we wake up is another chance to get it right, while also an indicator that we are not yet refined, not yet completely and utterly faithful and submissive. Everyday we wake up means we are not totally of the Father, but his grace has allowed us to open our eyes nonetheless. I likewise knew nothing of God being of the catholic faith, i was baptized and catechized as a child, but still struggled to stay awake during the monotone anf droning presentation of the word. Then after much trauma in my teens, i grew resentful of the churches that i was pushed into and had thrust upon me. Through more and more trauma and what i am now realizing was a flash in the pan situation of having someone speak to me both through words and actions, i began to understand that church wasnt just about growing fat on the word, but a platform from which to serve. That pastor pissed many people off because he was often serving instead of sitting at his desk, and when forced to choose between preaching and family, he didnt hesitate to choose the latter. Then came years without a shepard and i rarely attended then the new guy who i bumped heads with but ultimately understood many things i hadn't before. One of them being that the 12 signs of the horoscope are a bastardization of both the tribes of Israel and the apostles, each of which had personalities, gifts, and duties prescribed and acknowledged. This i find important because the doctors may not relate to the fishermen, with their crude talk and unrefined manner, and likewise the tax collector to the lawyer. A whole lot of words to say "ears to hear." The current pastor does little to move me but i understand its not just for me alone and may not be for me at all. He may not reach me in a similar way that i may not reach certain people. Ugh, i have a hundred thoughts all fighting each other to reach my fingers first but i hope what i have said so far is coherent enough. With that i would challenge you, not to become discouraged with the slow pace of those in the church and maybe show up in any way you can, i think your thoughts would go farther being told to those with which you have these qualms. I think a lot of them have fallen asleep at the wheel but need these thoughts presented to them. Be the change and all that. I think its important to hold fast to these things in which we perceive peril, for where would it all end up if the strong in faith and convictions all flee?
Praise God you were able to come back from all that! My point isn't about perfection or having the best practice or slow pace, but about what really matters which is eternity.
Matthew 7: 15-23, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. nize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
2 Timothy 3:5-9, "having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men."
We have a tremendous number of "Christians" with no real faith, who aren't saved or worse, lost their salvation, and they are led by the nose by hypocrites and deceivers. When the reckoning of the Great falling away is upon us, probably not far off by the look of things, it'll be exposed for all of us with open eyes just how bad the church institution is. I'm ahead of the curve on this bit of wisdom. If they would listen to me I'd be out there telling them, but they don't and they won't so it just leads to alienation for me and no positive outcomes. I'm focusing on individuals now as I'm able, and this stack at least is an outlet for me and hopefully reaches some people, but you can't beat the casino by playing, and that's what it's like to try and reform churches in the US at this point. People need to come out of them and pursue an authentic practice that's not based on top down manipulation or herd behavior, because that isn't saving faith and has inoculated whole generations against the Word rather than lighting the way, on net balance at least.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and blessings!
In all this i agree, the pursuit of the Father is a deeply personal one, if the only place you get the word is at church, it is easy to be led astray. Something seen in the catholic church of old, which preferred its "AIPs" didnt read it for them selves. Ultimately i just wanted to say that you are a raindrop created by God and sent to the earth to ripple the pool of other raindrop sitting stagnant, and we never know who those ripples will touch, what waves they will make. Often times its not the one being spoken to, but the silent bystanders. As you mentioned your walk has become a lonely one and i guess thats why i even bothered to comment in the first place. Alas i still have hope, that you may not feel so lonely and that the people being led astray could turn back. God forgives the humble and maybe some of these people in churches have had it easy, or as i like to call it, spiritually priviledged in as much as the Father will not give them more than they can handle. My super power is that i am pigheaded and need to suffer much to learn and so i just cant lose hope for any lost soul out there, because that couldve been me
I used to share a lot of your opinions but i am beginning to kinda get it. The church should never be where you get your meat and potatoes. Its more of a hands in/break that you see before a game. To touch base and restore the tank surrounded by like minded people and just have normal conversations from a similar foundation. Now i am in no way saying that any church is perfect, far from it, they are flawed just like the people who sit in them. Believe me, i was right there with you with the criticism, but as i learn about grace, i am realizing that its not just grace to the sinners, its about grace to those who know not the muck and the mire, who have never stepped out of line far enough to feel immersed in sin. I have come to see that their struggle is very real and quite different from mine. I know what i left behind, but they will always have that small voice asking"what if?" As for those spilling blasphemous doctrine, they will be judged harsher than the rest of us, so i am trying to learn to have grace with them too. Think about the times anybody ever changed your heart or mind, was it with the judgment of the first testament, or was it with the heart of Christ in the new? All along we have asked for examples, we got kings, but they, as human, also fell short, so our Father sent the ultimate example. I admire your ponderings and the way you phrase the wanderings of your mind. Thank you for writing
For me, I'm moving in the opposite direction. I didn't have high expectations of church when I came into it for the first time in adulthood 4 years ago, and I had little knowledge of Scripture besides the bits from Sunday school as a kid and veggie tales. My simple rubric was, "who's recognizing that God and worshipping Him and having fellowship is more important than temporal safety?" Exploring churches during COVID was a great way to see that. Any church that was shutting down and following illegal government mandates about masks and distance isn't worthy to be considered a church. If getting sick is proven by action to be a worse thing than hellfire, there is no faith in that "church". So I joined one of only 2 churches in my state sueing the state over 1st amendment violations. It's truly incredible how few did and how effectively the "church" has been muzzled.
What I've come to understand since then is it's even deeper than that. Church doesn't exist in the New Testament, the word is Ekklesia. It means called out: those called out of the world and into the body of Christ, and this is fundamentally at variance with the world. This is a community, a family, a body, not a water cooler. The institutions masquerading as God's overseers and servants don't bring a nice social club, they disgrace God's name and denigrate Christ's message to babbling incoherence. If church isn't the "real deal", the Ekklesia, then what is it? What good can it possibly do if it isn't following God's word nor spirit? It's worse to do wrong in God's name, even in ignorance, than to never know His word at all.
Thanks for reading and commenting! Shalom
I once asked similar questions and someone once told me to think about how much farther gone people would be without any form of Christ in their lives. This entire life is a refining process and everyday we wake up is another chance to get it right, while also an indicator that we are not yet refined, not yet completely and utterly faithful and submissive. Everyday we wake up means we are not totally of the Father, but his grace has allowed us to open our eyes nonetheless. I likewise knew nothing of God being of the catholic faith, i was baptized and catechized as a child, but still struggled to stay awake during the monotone anf droning presentation of the word. Then after much trauma in my teens, i grew resentful of the churches that i was pushed into and had thrust upon me. Through more and more trauma and what i am now realizing was a flash in the pan situation of having someone speak to me both through words and actions, i began to understand that church wasnt just about growing fat on the word, but a platform from which to serve. That pastor pissed many people off because he was often serving instead of sitting at his desk, and when forced to choose between preaching and family, he didnt hesitate to choose the latter. Then came years without a shepard and i rarely attended then the new guy who i bumped heads with but ultimately understood many things i hadn't before. One of them being that the 12 signs of the horoscope are a bastardization of both the tribes of Israel and the apostles, each of which had personalities, gifts, and duties prescribed and acknowledged. This i find important because the doctors may not relate to the fishermen, with their crude talk and unrefined manner, and likewise the tax collector to the lawyer. A whole lot of words to say "ears to hear." The current pastor does little to move me but i understand its not just for me alone and may not be for me at all. He may not reach me in a similar way that i may not reach certain people. Ugh, i have a hundred thoughts all fighting each other to reach my fingers first but i hope what i have said so far is coherent enough. With that i would challenge you, not to become discouraged with the slow pace of those in the church and maybe show up in any way you can, i think your thoughts would go farther being told to those with which you have these qualms. I think a lot of them have fallen asleep at the wheel but need these thoughts presented to them. Be the change and all that. I think its important to hold fast to these things in which we perceive peril, for where would it all end up if the strong in faith and convictions all flee?
Many blessings...
Praise God you were able to come back from all that! My point isn't about perfection or having the best practice or slow pace, but about what really matters which is eternity.
Matthew 7: 15-23, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. nize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
2 Timothy 3:5-9, "having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men."
We have a tremendous number of "Christians" with no real faith, who aren't saved or worse, lost their salvation, and they are led by the nose by hypocrites and deceivers. When the reckoning of the Great falling away is upon us, probably not far off by the look of things, it'll be exposed for all of us with open eyes just how bad the church institution is. I'm ahead of the curve on this bit of wisdom. If they would listen to me I'd be out there telling them, but they don't and they won't so it just leads to alienation for me and no positive outcomes. I'm focusing on individuals now as I'm able, and this stack at least is an outlet for me and hopefully reaches some people, but you can't beat the casino by playing, and that's what it's like to try and reform churches in the US at this point. People need to come out of them and pursue an authentic practice that's not based on top down manipulation or herd behavior, because that isn't saving faith and has inoculated whole generations against the Word rather than lighting the way, on net balance at least.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and blessings!
In all this i agree, the pursuit of the Father is a deeply personal one, if the only place you get the word is at church, it is easy to be led astray. Something seen in the catholic church of old, which preferred its "AIPs" didnt read it for them selves. Ultimately i just wanted to say that you are a raindrop created by God and sent to the earth to ripple the pool of other raindrop sitting stagnant, and we never know who those ripples will touch, what waves they will make. Often times its not the one being spoken to, but the silent bystanders. As you mentioned your walk has become a lonely one and i guess thats why i even bothered to comment in the first place. Alas i still have hope, that you may not feel so lonely and that the people being led astray could turn back. God forgives the humble and maybe some of these people in churches have had it easy, or as i like to call it, spiritually priviledged in as much as the Father will not give them more than they can handle. My super power is that i am pigheaded and need to suffer much to learn and so i just cant lose hope for any lost soul out there, because that couldve been me